As most of you know, I like the beer. If you’re an in-real-life friend or relative, you see me drink beer, how shall we say this, with great appreciation. Even if you know me only through TucsonMama, astute reading will lead you to conclude that, yes, I enjoy my beer.
And we go out a lot as a family–we all like going downtown, being outside on a patio near the train tracks, or watching people do their thing. So we sometimes take our babies to bars.
I’m not talking about The Buffet or the Home Den….more like Gentle Ben’s, Barrio Brewing, Congress, and Sky Bar. But still, babies, bars. This article makes a case against such a combination. Perhaps surprisingly, I don’t disagree entirely with the author. I suppose it’s because it wasn’t so long ago that I was like her: “a 5-foot-4, dark-haired Jewish girl in her early 20s…out drinking and sobbing about a bad breakup”. (I’m still a 5-foot-4 dark-haired Jewish girl, though that hair is now highlighted. And with a couple additional decades under my belt, the drinking-and-sobbing thing is a nearly forgotten memory.
But even as an old-and-tired mom, I still like to go out, and the author, Risa Chubinsky, predicts the same for herself. However, she assumes she’ll take a different approach:
I pictured myself 10, maybe 15 years in the future, happily sipping my suds with friends at a neighborhood bar. We would be pretty much the same then as we are now — loud, maybe a little raucous, thankful for the escape from reality and happy in the knowledge that our children and their sitters were safe at home, where they belonged.
I imagine I could have written this column 10 or 15 years ago. I agree with her sentiments in many ways. And S and I do trade off nights out now and then (tonight, in fact, I am meeting my dear friend Amy for a long-awaited glass of wine at Wilko!) But for many reasons, we don’t leave our kids with “their sitters” whenever we feel like it.
Besides the expense, one consideration is that we work outside the home all week so we like to be with our kids most of the time on evenings and weekends.
But a bigger question for you is this–why, exactly, is the combination of beer and kid so bad? Is this attitude tied to America’s puritanical history? (Rachel, help me out here–don’t kids go to pubs in England, or is that just my Anglophile fantasy?)
As I said, I’m not talking about bellying up to the whiskey-slick bar at the Buffet or any other dive–we’re not out late, bumping up against trashed twenty-two year olds messy-drunk and yelling about whatever it is that young folks yell about when they’re drunk. There’s no wiping of tiny hands with a buffalo-sweat-soaked bar towel (gratuitous Buffet reference for my Tucson pals), nor is there unsafe parental intoxication. We’re not staggering around unable to care properly and tenderly for our offspring.
This is a pint or two with some friends. I understand that the young folks don’t want us all up in their stuff when they’re out trying to have a good time. And as cute as I find my two kids, I do try to keep them close when we’re out so that they’re not in other people’s space. If the complaint is truly about toddler mayhem ruining a grown up night out, I get it, and I concur. When we have a rare grown-up evening out I don’t generally want to play peekaboo with even the most darling toddler, nor would I appreciate having to guard my wineglass against an errant paper airplane. On the other hand, I don’t expect a kid-free world–for example, I don’t need the bathroom to be an adult-only zone. Kids exist, and they poo. I accepted that even before I reproduced. (Changing the poopy diaper on the table in the middle of the restaurant, as the author witnessed, is kind of a public health nuisance.)
So I see the author’s point. I also would be curious to find out how she feels about it down the road, if she has kids. I know that 90% of my proclamations about kids, parents, and the way that I would do things differently–well, I kind of cringe when I think about it. It’s so much different, so much more complicated, than I ever imagined.
17 responses so far ↓
1 Kate // Jan 18, 2010 at 1:16 pm
OK, my kid hasn’t arrived yet, so my comments come from memories of my own childhood in a strong Irish-Catholic neighborhood on the south side of Chicago, rather than any current parenting policies or experiences: yep, we were in bars. Quite often. Not really bars, though–”pubs” might be more accurate. (And never, ever what Chicagoans call corner or neighborhood taps–those were/are dark, scary, piss-soaked places, even at noon! No windows, that sort of thing. Contractors stopping for their morning beer and pickled egg on the way to the job.) There was definitely drinking occurring in the establishments we would have been in, but, more importantly, there was eating, talking, music. These were, at least in that time and place, “family establishments”–at least during certain hours. The occasions I remember most vividly involved my grandparents, aunts and uncles, and family friends. There must have been rules, stated or unstated, because as I recall, there was always food being served, we were always under control, and there weren’t any drunk scary people. Surely it was never past 6:00 p.m.; most often, I believe these were weekend afternoons. If I were to name comparable local joints, the list would echo yours–Barrio Brewing Company through the dinner hour, but never The Golden Nugget; the patio of Maynard’s or The Cup before 7 or 8, but never Plush or Joe and Vicky’s (great place, great food, btw); Bison Witches, but never Che’s, even at 3:00 p.m.; Bob Dobb’s of an afternoon, but never The District. Seems to come down to context, timing, vibe, and other, more subtle factors…including that ever-elusive common sense…?!?!
2 Ilana // Jan 18, 2010 at 1:18 pm
So, I have a few thoughts about this.
Maybe it’s because I spent way too much time at the Bay Horse and the Buffet in my youth (2 not very kid friendly places), but I don’t really remember being bothered by toddlers trying to steal my beer (or my pickled egg, yum).
This article also made me pretty annoyed, as some others have, because it is so snarky and uses the term ‘breeders’ to describe those of us who procreate. My feeling is that the tone sets up an adversarial, anti-mom type of vibe.
Really, humans are ‘breeders’. We, in this country, are privileged to be able to choose whether or not we want to take advantage of that.
3 Rachel // Jan 18, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Ilana,
We must have met in the Buffet at some point, long before we became the breeders that biology intended us to be.
Julie,
No, you are not mistaken in your Anglophile fantasy, just expand it to include a whole host of western European countries. Pubs with playgrounds outside, pie, fries and orange soda (sickly sweet) while Mum and Dad indulged in a little lager, shandy, pint of bitter or a glass of wine were a regular part of my upbringing.
Beer gardens in German and Austria, sweet little gardens in France. Oh yes, the Europeans have this down. We should move there. Now. Americans are very uptight about the whole thing.
4 Becca // Jan 18, 2010 at 8:56 pm
From someone without kids yet, I love having bars and places to hang out for many different occasions. One of my favorite things to do is to meet Julie and her cute family at the Brewery. I think that it is nice for both parents, kids, and friends to see how families can interact with their communities. I grew up going to fun places with my parents and hearing live music. They enjoyed a beer, and my sister and I enjoyed the time being with parents, their friends, etc.
Kate I loved your rundown of Tucson bars.
5 Rachel // Jan 18, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Kate,
By the way you’re absolutely on the money regarding where and when as far as I’m concerned.
6 julie // Jan 18, 2010 at 9:34 pm
btw–Wilko is NOT open tonight. Just in case, you know, anyone ha plans. But tmrw…and yum.
7 Julie // Jan 18, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Agreed w/Rachel, Kate has it nailed. We could make an iphone app that gives a yay or nay to kids-in-bar based on location/time of day.
And Ilana, no doubt Rachel and I have shared pickled eggs with you on more than one occasion (and Kate, soon to be first time mama, you and I have shared lipstick in the bathroom at Plush, I feel certain of it).
So we’re in agreement–common sense, good judgment, away with the puritanical viewpoint…All good!
anyone else?
8 Melissa // Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 am
Good grief, the Stroller War of Park Slope is still on, in full force. You’d think they’d have gotten used to it by now and not rehash an old complaint! Maybe they’re new to the area.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/fashion/10stroller.html?ex=1360472400&en=7f2dac2dc31c1bab&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
http://www.tucsonmama.com/2008/02/11/babies-and-bars/#more-106
9 Erika M // Jan 19, 2010 at 12:38 pm
I’ll be happy to contribute to the kid-friendly bar identifier app. Eli and I have road tested quite a few. I agree Buffet, Plush, Che’s, District and Shelter would all be no’s regardless of time. Maybe The Hut as well. O’Malley’s is surprisingly kid friendly with kid cups and a fenced in patio. Recently I find myself confused by the college bars, though. When are those ok? Are college kids always annoyed by ankle biters? It’s not like I would ever take Eli (or myself) to Dirtbags, but Dubliner? Yay or nay? What would the bar app say?
10 Cindy // Jan 19, 2010 at 12:54 pm
I don’t have kids yet, but when I do, I want to be able to go to a neighborhood place like BBC to have a pint and share some food out with kid in tow. I think there should be balance and tolerance on both sides, not keep the kids out super late, so the night still belongs to the young people, but at the afternoon/dinner hour its up for grabs. I remember going to a coffee place in Portland that sold beer/wine, and it was filled with moms/dads drinking beer:)
11 Rachel // Jan 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm
Hey Melissa,
It has been almost two years since that last rendition. The new upstarts were still in college or maybe diapers last time and we’re so old we’d forgotten that we’d had the conversation before.
Park Slope obviously does have some problems though eh?
12 Melissa // Jan 20, 2010 at 7:32 am
Yes, that’s my razor-sharp memory at work, ha ha.
Seriously, google “Park Slope” and “strollers” or “mommies” or something along those lines and see what you get. The responses make it sound like a war zone for families or the land of the most obnoxious mommies on the planet, depending on which side of the fence the writer is on. Everytime I read something about the “mommy wars,” it always seemed to germinate in Park Slope. As soon as I saw Julie’s link to the article, I knew the words “Park Slope” were front and center even before I clicked on it.
Okay, rant over! LOL
13 Julie // Jan 20, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Kate, I appreciate your input as not-yet-with-baby-in-tow, and as someone with whom I shared much single-gal-Tucson-bartime, even if we weren’t quite aware of it at the time. Common sense indeed.
And yes, beer gardens! They are all about families.
Back to Tucson: Zachary’s a resounding YES (it’s sure as hell not a date place!), Deadwood NO.
Let’s get going on that Tucson bar app…
14 Kate // Jan 20, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Hey, just catching up with everyone’s comments. Zachary’s, yes. Gotta add Time Market, now that one can have a nip there, too. Good thing my office is moving several blocks away from its current location next door to TM after the kidlet arrives, or I’d probably succumb to a weekday Mad Men-style wine with pastrami lunch now and then.
Weirdly, now that we are temporarily stuck in the NW ‘burbs, I’m noticing more places up there that are family- and adult beverage-friendly–and I’m not counting chains. These joints might not be as hip as places in town, but they do seem to echo that Barrio Brewing vibe. Interesting, and kind of unexpected, at least by me.
I agree with everybody that I’d love to see more continental attitudes toward social space, families, and adult beverages. Chicago clearly has New York’s Park Slope beat on this score! I asked a pal in Chicago if she had witnessed or experienced anything similar to that kind of tension and she was stumped. She did have her own list of places to meet friends and have a drink that were kid-friendly. Navy Pier on a September Saturday at my last visit was full of strollers and beer garden denizens, all apparently getting along quite well.
Julie, I swear I can see us in the mirror sharing that lipstick in the remodeled BR at Congress. Back when the Tasha mural was still on the east(ish?) wall.
How about a Tucson Mama app, period, with sub-categories: Great Shoes and They Treat Your Kid Well; Makeup Ladies Who Don’t Look at You with Barely Concealed Condescension; Next Best Things to a Beer Garden in Heidelberg…
15 Beth // Jan 21, 2010 at 11:05 pm
If I’m not mistaken my family including the 1 year old and the 9 year old had a moderate amount of brews with you and S at the Brewery last summer when we were in town. Having a long history of bartending under my belt I have seen the horrible, irresponsible drunk parent in the bar twice in twenty years and one table top diaper change (UGH) but I have seen many more responsible adults enjoy an evening that include a few drinks. I agree with the other posters that the trick is to know the bar/pub/brewhouse, know the crowd that’s usually there at any given time, know your kids and their limits, and it goes without saying know yours and drink responsibly. Again, use that common sense.
PS I didn’t bother to read the article that inspired your story, I figured it would just make me angry.
16 Rachel // Jan 21, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Kate, I love you.
Well, you know really like what you have to say anyway.
17 Jonathan Kandell // Jun 20, 2010 at 8:16 am
Like most of you above, I don’t agree with this article. I think it revolves around the culture in which you were raised, and whether you and your family had a healthy or dysfunctional relationship with alcohol. In my culture (judaism), I grew up around alcohol at shabat, celebrations. There was even a holiday (Simchat Torah) where the adults are _commanded_ to get wasted. Seeing a rabbi in drag once a year took away the stigma, frankly. Alcohol is just alcohol. Alcoholism is a very different thing. Likewise, in my family, no one ever got drunk in the bad sense– and at age 46 neither do I. I got drunk at my Bachelor Party, and I sometimes drink to get a buzz at the end of a hard day to drown out the memory of my son’s screaming; but there is nothing not 100% life-affirming, family-friendly, etc. Like Julie I prefer home-made fresh beer to bottled stale shit. (Rather than the latter, I’d rather just drink juice or a tamarindo.) This author is being somewhat egocentric–assuming everyone at the bar is just like her. Why would one assume that?
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